Orna Ross and Joanna Penn compare notes from the indie front line, drawing on Jo’s new novel and her renewed focus on business basics for ALLi’s Indie Author Lab at the London Book Fair, alongside Orna’s shift to Substack and a clear-eyed look at what is changing fastest for authors. In this forward-looking conversation, two self-publishing veterans unpack agentic AI, the challenge of staying discoverable in a sea of content, and how permission-based audiences, reader trust, and real-world connection can make authors harder to replace.
Listen to the Podcast: Three Trends for 2026
Show Notes
- Indie Author Lab
- 2026 Trends And Predictions For Indie Authors And The Book Publishing Industry with Joanna Penn
Sponsor
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About the Hosts
Joanna Penn writes nonfiction for authors and is an award-nominated, New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller author as J.F.Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker.
Orna Ross launched the Alliance of Independent Authors at the London Book Fair in 2012. Her work for ALLi has seen her named as one of The Bookseller’s “100 top people in publishing”. She also publishes poetry, fiction, and nonfiction and is greatly excited by the democratizing, empowering potential of author-publishing. For more information about Orna, visit her website.
Read the Transcripts
Joanna Penn: Welcome to the Self-Publishing with ALLi Podcast, with me, Joanna Penn, and Orna Ross. Hi Orna.
Orna Ross: Hi Joanna. And hello everyone.
Joanna Penn: Hello everyone. Indeed. And today we are going to talk a bit about London Book Fair and Indie Author Lab and our experiences and some of the things we've been thinking about. But first up, as ever, we are authors too. So Orna, give us a bit of an update. I know you've been super busy with everything we're about to talk about, but is there anything you want to update us on around you and also ALLi?
Orna Ross: Yeah, so you're right. It has been incredibly busy on the ALLi front, just with various things — two big projects that came through at the same time, which wasn't originally intended. But, you know, things happen.
So my own projects for the last few weeks have been in the in-between zone, but I do have a new poetry book coming for Easter. That is another one of my little 12-poem collections for special occasions. This may be the last one — I'm not sure. I think I've kind of gone through the whole year now and added anything that needs to be added.
And my other big thing is that I'm serializing a novel on Substack and generally sinking into Substack and really enjoying that platform. I'll probably talk about that in a bit more detail when I'm there a little bit longer. But lots of interesting things happening — lots of indie authors there, lots of authors bringing their readers there, and fiction is beginning to take off over there, so it's an interesting place to be. It feels like it's 2012 over there. So how about you? What are you up to?
Joanna Penn: In terms of what I'm doing, as we talked about last time, I'm doing a Master's this year, which is why we're only doing this less regularly. I'm doing this Master's in death, religion and culture. I have a couple more essays and a dissertation to go, and my dissertation is going to be on digital necromancy — how authors could be resurrected based on our words and our online platform.
We are told, all our author lives, to build a platform, put our words online, and yet with technology changing, do we really want to be digitally resurrected? So I'm looking forward to talking about that with you once that's done, because I think that might be interesting to a lot of people.
Orna Ross: Well, it's completely fascinating to me, and I'm sure it's very interesting to a lot of people. So many authors actually only really come into existence — are widely known — after they pass. So that's one aspect of it. But at the moment it's literary agents who hold all that IP and manage it, because most people don't have a clue how. So it'll be really interesting to see what aspect of it you're going to focus on, because it's a huge topic.
Joanna Penn: It is. But yeah, so that's happening. And I have also just published The Black Church, which is a short story that I wrote based on my Iceland trip last year. It is in my collection The Buried and the Drowned, but I've published that on its own.
It's a really good thing with short stories — you can publish them all separately in ebook and audio, and then you can also do a collection. So The Black Church is available in the usual places. And I'm also just working on Bones of the Deep, which is my next thriller. I was updating the custom endpapers today — I absolutely love designing endpapers. Getting my print books done for the Kickstarter coming in April, so that's at jfpen.com/bones.
I guess both of us, between us, are actually doing quite a lot creatively as well as all the business stuff.
Orna Ross: Always. I think there's always these two sides being juggled.
The Indie Author Bookstore
Orna Ross: So our big Indie Author Bookstore was launching at the London Book Fair, and we used the opportunity of the fair to bring lots of people's attention to the fact that it exists. For those of you who are not sure what that is, it's essentially a collection, a catalog of all our members' books.
We're calling it a bookstore, but actually it's the members' transaction — the members' pay link that people buy the books on. It's focused on readers, but also on influencers and media and anybody who's interested in books and who wants to find a place to go and look for indie books. So that was really super successful. It was a huge amount of work getting it all together.
Joanna Penn: First I just wanted to mention the Indie Author Bookstore, in case people didn't find what you said clear enough. It is not a transactional place, so people don't have to upload their manuscripts to the Indie Author Bookstore. Members can add the cover and the description, but then they put a link which goes to their store or another store, right? So they can choose any link.
Orna Ross: Yes. One link of choice. And some people are using a universal book link for that, so it can go everywhere. But we're actually recommending, based on research that we've done, to choose one link.
And we're also using it as an opportunity to encourage authors to have their own transactional website and bring people to their own website. We'd like to see more links on the bookstore that are actually author links rather than links to retailers. But of course, as ever, it is the member's choice where they want to bring their readers or whatever they want to do.
Joanna Penn: Yeah. So I think that's important.
London Book Fair Overview
Joanna Penn: So just to set the scene for people who might not know: I feel like London Book Fair potentially doesn't describe what it actually is. It is a trade show for the publishing industry and also one of the world's biggest international rights fairs, where agents and publishers from around the world basically buy and sell books, license books.
So it's full of publisher booths and companies that serve the industry. It is the publishing business. And it's fascinating to walk around and see what's going on. It's really not for authors, but it makes it very interesting as an author, because I feel like you see a side of the industry that you often wouldn't see.
If you go to an author event and there are some agents speaking, they will say very, very different things at an author event than they say at London Book Fair and publishing industry events. Sometimes you'll hear authors described as ‘at the heart of our business' and ‘we really love authors and they're everything to us.' And when you go to the London Book Fair, you realize that it is about books and it's about readers — or in fact, it's not even about readers, it's about books and whoever buys books, which might well be other publishing industries or other groups.
So it's really interesting to me that authors are ultimately just replaceable by other authors at this event and in the industry. And so it's up to us to make ourselves matter to our readers. However you publish, it is very clear that we are the ones who have to get our books to our readers.
But authors always have this kind of sideshow at the book fair. This year ALLi had a bigger booth. Amazon was there, BookVault, other vendors like ElevenLabs and AI audio — lots of different things. I had lots of meetings, lots of walking around. Went to some panels, went to panels for publishers.
I went to a practical session on generative engine optimization — how to get AI search engines to find your books. Traditional publishing is using AI for metadata, optimizing back lists, other business functions. And I also spoke at the Indie Author Lab, which was ALLi's full-day event. So that's a bit of a snapshot of my London Book Fair. So Orna, give us your general feeling about the Book Fair and also the Indie Author Lab.
ALLi's History at the Fair — and Why 2026 Felt Different
Orna Ross: So you most certainly did speak at the Indie Author Lab and spoke most wonderfully, as always. And it was very exciting for us to have this first full indie author day at the London Book Fair.
The Alliance launched at London Book Fair in 2012. The idea of doing that — we could have launched anywhere, launched in a pub — but the idea was that we felt right from the start that we wanted authors to be located within indie publishing, to be located within the wider publishing industry. We were going to be a sector, not just authors on the side, but actually publishers too, and therefore we should be at the big publishing fair.
But I think you would agree — you've been there pretty much every year since — we have felt very much like a sideshow for a long way along. And having conversations that could be really quite difficult, where the level of ignorance around what's happening in our sector would just be overwhelming. I have found that quite frustrating at times.
Last year we didn't even take a booth, because we were really quite cross about it all and it seemed to be going backwards after Covid instead of improving. And that led to a number of conversations with the London Book Fair.
And now there is this new CEO — Emma Lo — and as a books person, she was part of that team that originally gave us that free room at the London Book Fair for our launch back in the day. Free space at London Book Fair is quite a big deal, because all they do is sell space. So it was a very generous act at that time from quite a forward-looking team who could see what was happening with self-publishing, even though it was very much in the early stages at that point.
So I would say that 2026 felt completely different to me, for a number of reasons. Author HQ, which is kind of where the authors gather at the fair, is normally completely dominated by authors who are looking for trade publishing deals and agents. That was still there in evidence, but there were far more indie-first people and far more sensible questions about self-publishing. There were more topics around self-publishing and just a general level of awareness that I hadn't seen there before.
We also found the quality of questions at the ALLi stand was of a different order. And London Book Fair has actually joined the Alliance as a partner member. It wants to change that perception — that London Book Fair is not for authors. It realizes they have an issue there, that authors have not been at the center of the business, but that they are increasingly so and that's where the future lies.
Emma Lo is a books person and she gets it. She's very interested in what she calls ‘new publishing,' which is digital-first and author-centric. And she's leading a change of venue as well, moving to ExCeL on the east side of London, because she sees the east side as being where new publishing is located — with Olympia, where we were this year, being more the past, if you like.
She's going to be doing a few sessions with us where she will speak to us, find out from members what they want from the fair and what would make a difference. So I think there is a real, genuine interest in that, and we are hoping to work together with them to be the first worldwide book fair that will actually put the author at the center and not just have it as a nice little slogan.
Joanna Penn: Yeah, I definitely felt like it was positive. And like you say, there is a form of energy that you get from the different areas. There's always energy because there are so many people there. But I did feel there were a lot of positive conversations, and I really enjoyed it.
In fact, one of the opening keynotes actually mentioned self-publishing and said it's exciting to see what's happening in self-publishing over the last ten, twenty years — and then claimed it as a feeder into traditional publishing. So bringing successful indie authors into traditional publishing. I thought that was very interesting, because when we launched back in 2012, there was absolutely no way anyone would ever have said that in a keynote at London Book Fair.
Orna Ross: I didn't see that particular one, but you're absolutely right. Because there were still panels about the two different routes — are you going to go trad or are you going to go indie? But there was a lot more talk about what you're describing there.
And I think, you know, money talks at the end of the day. This is a books and business fair. But they are now understanding that the distribution models have just changed everything. Publishing houses are combing the bestseller lists on Amazon, but also now platforms like Substack or Instagram or wherever. Once you've got a following, a few people said to me, ‘I don't even care what your book is about. No interest. Just you, your author brand, you and your following.' That's what's of interest.
And I think that's a bit of a change. I heard a couple of agents saying that they don't even ask what the content of the book is. They're just interested in: what does this author stand for, what are they all about, what's their message, and what's their following interested in?
Joanna Penn: Yeah. And as evidence of this, one of the biggest posters at the fair was James Patterson with Mr. Beast. And if you don't know Mr. Beast, he is the biggest YouTuber in the world, has a Netflix show, has huge businesses. And of course James Patterson. The difference in their ages must be about fifty years, with James Patterson nearly eighty and Mr. Beast in his twenties.
This was one of the biggest posters — sort of double my height, it was the size of a building. And I was just like, that is exactly the point. They don't even care what this book is. But Mr. Beast and James Patterson together — that is a classic example of business-first publishing. These people have reach. But James Patterson, bless him, writes with some very diverse people — from Bill Clinton to Mr. Beast. These are quite different.
Orna Ross: Collaboration station! The other big poster that was very noticeable to me was Louisa Ross, who of course is an indie author who has done lots of licensing deals all over the place and really successfully built a career as an indie author. It was just great to see her huge, human-sized posters around the place, on both sides of Author HQ.
So yeah — 2026, maybe the year where the industry really does begin to open up to indie authors. And we would be very pleased if that is the case.
What Indie Authors Need Now
Joanna Penn: Okay. So you mentioned the quality of questions has got better, which is great. And we can pretty much do anything now. When I walk around, I'm like, yeah, we do better books than this. We do beautiful hardbacks with sprayed edges, we do full-cast audio, we do worldwide rights sales, we do translations, we do deals. We can pretty much do everything — people licensing to TV and film, people with their own warehouses shipping pallets from China.
But with all this choice, I think this is part of what I spoke about at the Indie Author Lab: every individual needs to simplify down to what they want to do. So when you are getting the questions: what do you think indie authors need now? Because we can do everything, but what do we need?
Orna Ross: I think that's a great question. And your brilliant session at Indie Author Lab — just to explain a little bit about where it came from and what it was all about.
This particular event was a day-long, paid event run by the Alliance, offsite from London Book Fair at Kensington Town Hall. We kept it quite small for this first year, just to explore it. But it's something that I've wanted to do for a long time — give indie authors time to actually go quite deeply into where they are right now in this moment, look at where they want to be in the next year or so, and bring together a room full of experts and other authors at different stages of the game.
We had some peer mentoring, had our experts answering questions, and had some education dotted through the day. The format worked really well, I think.
But the whole point of it — and this is to answer your question — what indie authors need now: we have all these choices, as you say, and we have all the information that we need to make our choices. And that's the big difference from when we started out, when information was really lacking and we were all passing secrets onto each other, sharing what's going on. That still happens, but it's much easier to get at the information now than it was in the past.
And the other thing is that information on its own is not enough. It never was. But what indies really need now, as everything becomes possible, is to understand what is right for me — the individual author. Individualization is the one-word answer to your question, I think. And that's quite a difficult thing for any single organization or any single person to deliver. But I think that is what is necessary — not so much information as knowledge: applied information.
So that's what we were focusing on at the Indie Author Lab. And the feedback was that people did feel it was necessary. It was kind of unusual at the beginning of the day — it was like, ‘Put away your laptops, put away your phones.' And people were there going, ‘But I take my notes on my laptop.' No — put away your laptop, put away your phone. Give yourself one day, just one day, where you go deeply into where you are right now and what you actually need. Because I think we need to keep coming back to that all the time.
Discernment and Individualization
Joanna Penn: Another thing that I talked about after Author Nation, and I think is always key after these big events, is this idea of discernment. Because there are so many voices, there is so much knowledge. I mean, both you and I — the ALLi podcast has a lot of stuff, I put out a podcast, there are so many podcasts, let alone books and events and all of this.
There is so much. And also so many vendors. I get pitched literally every day — multiple emails a day with new apps, new things launching, new things for authors. Because when you have an industry of people who are willing to pay, you have people who want to serve that industry. And some of them are great and some of them not so much — which is another reason ALLi is so important, because of the reviews of the service industry.
But in terms of the word discernment — it's on both the external side but also the internal side. And I'll definitely admit to, over the years, getting into things that I thought, ‘Oh, it surely must be a good idea because so and so says,' and then it just hasn't suited me. So the discernment is around what is good for me and my life, my stage in life, at the stage of my author business.
We see so often people getting obsessed with book marketing tactics when they haven't finished a first draft. I think that's a very common issue in the industry. So yeah, I think discernment is a word that is also increasingly important. What do you think?
Orna Ross: It's a great word, and I think it feeds in very much to that whole idea of individualization. And I would include in that, as well as all the personal stuff, just the understanding of what kind of author am I. Authors want different things. I'm not talking so much about genre here — more like, are you somebody who wants to transmit information? Do you want to inspire people? Are you a messenger? What kind of author are you?
And then what kind of publisher are you? Are you drawn more to crafting beautiful books, or is it more about engagement with the community, or is it more about volume and just getting the books out there? And what are you willing and not willing to do? Very few authors are actually going to want to run their own warehouse and do their own packing. When it gets down to it, that sort of prioritization — when there are things that we do want to do, it's discerning which of the many things we might want to do is the one that we're actually going to lean into.
And being disciplined enough — I think I will put discipline with discernment in this sort of abundant ecosystem in which we're operating. The discipline to say, ‘You know, at this time I'm writing about this, I'm publishing in this way, I'm working with these people.' And staying focused.
I think all of this is what we need now. We've gone from a situation when I started publishing where it was scarcity — it was all about scarcity. And now it's just this abundance. And you manage and handle them very differently. And sometimes I feel that authors are approaching this abundant ecosystem with a scarcity mentality, and that doesn't work.
AI at the Fair
Joanna Penn: Yeah. Well, actually that brings us into AI, which we have to talk about, because it was one of the themes of the fair. And the abundance aspect is part of this, because creating with AI tools does bring abundance in many ways.
And it was evident that it's being tackled in two ways. Firstly, there is what I'd call the business side. Traditional publishers — I went to a session on using AI for metadata, using AI for discovery, and how books are going to get found in a world where people are using ChatGPT or Amazon Rufus or other AI-powered tools, or even just Google's AI-powered search. So that was a big thing at the fair. And a discussion on ElevenLabs using AI to get more audiobooks out there. So there was this very pragmatic element around using AI tools for business.
And then on the other side, at the same time — and I think this is so important for people, because it doesn't need to be either/or — there was also this discussion around protection of IP, licensing published works to AI companies. And there was also a book called Don't Steal This Book — actually a printed book, essentially a blank book signed by authors protesting about AI model training.
And also there was the launch of Human Authored, a badge that authors can put on books saying they are human-authored. That is something that the Society of Authors is doing, also echoed by the Authors Guild. So I think there are two quite separate things here: the business side and the IP protection side. So what are your thoughts on all of this?
Orna Ross: Oh, that's a minefield and I have many, many thoughts. The main thing I would like to say is that these are complicated questions and we need to do some grown-up, intelligent thinking around them.
I understand very much where some of the voices on the IP side are coming from — the protection of writing and copyright and all of that. I completely understand how people feel about it. Just to say that at ALLi — and I won't be going into detail because we've discussed it many times before — the Alliance has practical and ethical guidelines for authors. Our take within our association is quite different to some other associations, in that our authors are publishers as well as writers, and so there's a slightly different take on it.
Just like trade publishing is using AI for various functions, so too are many of our members. We have people who are right over on the furthest side of human-authored — for whom that is very important to say, ‘This is just human-authored' — though with the recognition that that's getting harder and harder to hold to as AI permeates absolutely everything and all the tools that are being used in publishing. But absolutely we respect and completely get that stance.
And then over on the far side of the spectrum, people who are using AI tools for writing as well as their business needs, and everything in between. And we just say: our members are grown-ups. We're not in the business of telling other people how to run their business. ALLi is a broad church, always has been, and everybody is welcome as long as what they're doing is ethical.
Seeing all that and having many different conversations with many different kinds of authors, it's interesting to me that other associations — whose authors think more about the writing side only and who don't consider the publishing side — are largely coming down on the side of things like ‘Don't steal our books.' I find the language around something like that to be a bit inflammatory and a bit inaccurate.
Because absolutely there was an ignoring — a deliberate ignoring — of copyright, and a downloading of books from pirate sites, that absolutely did happen. But right now what's happening is that deals are being made with big content, so that copyright will probably be respected going forward. The courts' decisions so far seem to indicate that copyright law is sufficient to address what has happened. There are various other cases being brought, and it's going to be sorted in the courts, because these companies really only care about and understand legal action.
‘Don't steal this book' petitions are unlikely to have the effect that the people organizing them would want them to have. So I think there's a little bit of danger in sloganeering. We have to do some hard thinking around where we each fall on this spectrum. We would encourage every author to have their own AI policy — to understand where they stand, to make that clear to their readers for any readers who might care.
But in general, our research among readers would indicate that this is not really a question that readers are thinking about very much. It's a question that authors are thinking a lot about. But some of these actions: who are they actually for? What do they achieve? And what are we not doing while we're putting our creative energy into this sort of activism? I think anything that doesn't recognize the complexity of where we find ourselves is letting us down a little bit.
Joanna Penn: Hmm. Yeah. I also like the fact that we are an Alliance of Independent Authors, and part of the reason you set this up is because we're all very independent and we do things our own way. And it always makes me laugh when people try to control other people in an organization where the whole point is that we are independent.
You used the word grown-ups, but I think we have to make our own decisions for our own author business. And as you say, focus on what is important to us creatively and business-wise.
In-Person Events
Joanna Penn: What is definitely happening, with the rise of more digital products and the abundance of digital, is that in-person events and also in-person sales — so fairs and schools and weekend events and things — people are doing this more and more and are being encouraged. But many authors, including me, struggle with in-person events, let alone in-person sales. So what did you learn from the Indie Author Lab, and also the fair, that might help authors to do more in-person events?
Orna Ross: Yeah, so we'll be sending out our evaluation forms to everyone who attended — probably they've gone out today. And we'll be really interested to see what people come back with, because we learn from that.
The in-person event thing is interesting, because it's part of this whole idea of be more human in an age of AI, isn't it? The one thing that AI can't be is your reflection — blood, body in the room. And therefore that leans into the ‘be more human' thing. But I would say that while it's a great way to do things, it's not very efficient, because physically it's quite tiring.
The old book tour — where you physically go from city to city, store to store, whether you do that for yourself or whether you have a publisher or a publicist to arrange it for you — it's very tiring. Physical events are tiring, that's one aspect of them. And then secondly, for some authors they're not going to be successful because they don't like doing them, or it's not where their skills are, it's not where their talent lies, and there is no point in trying to do that.
So the debate around this reminds me a little bit of the debate around social media: do I have to be on social media? No, you don't. But you do have to be somewhere. Do I have to do in-person events? No, you don't. They're not essential. But doing something is essential. So if you are the kind of person who, like our friend Sasha, comes alive when you step on a stage and loves nothing more than to have a crowd of people listening, then absolutely in-person events are a really wise thing for you to do. But if you are dreading it and you feel awful doing it, then no.
I think with our own event, we were trying to give people lots of time to go quite deeply into their own process and do some self-reflection. And there was also some very guided networking for those who found it difficult. And we even had a system — which became the joke of the day — whereby people had to hold a quill in order to speak. The point of doing that was those who tend to speak more, spoke less, and those who tend to speak less, spoke more.
So I think recognizing the audience in the room is important. For authors who are considering doing in-person events, it's about recognizing the audience in the room and what they want from us. And I've always wondered why book launches have to be so horrendously boring — some bad wine and somebody reading who isn't a performer and everybody just standing around holding the book. There is no reason why an author event has to be like that. It can be something quite different. And I think, if we are going to make in-person events more part of the author landscape, there's a lot of room there to improve them.
Joanna Penn: Yeah, and I think they need to have two sides to them. As you mentioned, we're authors and we're publishers. And so when we go to an event, like the people who came to the Indie Author Lab came as authors and publishers, but they came for themselves — to build up themselves and to network for their own benefit.
And the other side of it is events that are reader-facing. For example, Karen English was in the room. Karen is a children's author, incredibly successful, and she mentioned she'd been in five schools the week before — basically a different school every day. She's incredibly organized, an author who does in-person events at schools and sells books to every class in every school. It's just so organized.
But when Karen's in that room as Karen with a group of authors, that's very different from her going to a school assembly and speaking to groups of kids. So I think that's something to keep in mind: why are you there? Is it to serve other people or to help your own career?
Orna Ross: Absolutely. And very often as authors we have a sort of second bit — we have the writing of the books, and we create events maybe around something else. I find that reader events, for anybody who has done them well, grow over time. And I think you do have to enjoy it.
I mean, there's Karen doing five schools, five days a week. Why? Because she loves it. She did it from day one. It's her thing to do. She really loves talking directly to the kids, getting those books in their hands, and hearing their feedback. That's her happy place. And I think that's the main point.
But for reader events to build up to a big reader event — I know Author Nation are trying to build the reader event side of their conference, and in some ways it's a real challenge. The two different aspects of reader-facing versus author-facing are very easy to get mixed up.
Looking Ahead
Joanna Penn: Absolutely. So lots to think about. I am certainly intending to be at London Book Fair next year — who knows what will happen by then, but I'm intending to be there. And it is a sort of ‘spring is here' moment too — the daffodils are out and there's a bit of sun, even though it's often absolutely freezing.
But looking ahead, what is coming up next for ALLi? For you personally, over the next few months — I've got my Kickstarter for Bones of the Deep coming in April, jfpen.com/bones. But what about you, Orna?
Orna Ross: I'm going to be working on my poetry book for Easter. As I said, I'm working with my daughter, who is an augmented reality artist. She works with AI as an artist, and it's really interesting to watch how she does all that. She's going to do the illustrations.
We were working on it before Christmas, but she was actually hospitalized over Christmas and that project stalled. But she's back now, so I'm really looking forward to that, because it's really nice working with her on it.
And my big main thing is getting A Life Before done and sent off to my Kickstarter backers — that was also delayed for a different set of reasons. So just one year late I'll be delivering those, hopefully in the next quarter as well. So head down on that now.
And ALLi will be consolidating the lessons of the last while, building on the bookstore. Now very much about getting more influencers there — we've got 5,000 books in store so far and we want to get all our members with all their books. Have you done yours yet?
Joanna Penn: It's on the list.
Orna Ross: See? But tell people where they can find it.
Joanna Penn: Tell people where they can find it!
Orna Ross: So it's at bookstore.allianceindependentauthors.org — a subdomain on the main site. We'll have the address in the show notes, along with all the other URLs that we've mentioned here in the show.
Joanna Penn: Brilliant. Well, happy writing everyone.
Orna Ross: And happy publishing. Bye-bye.
Joanna Penn: Bye-bye.
