How To Market Self-Published Poetry Books: Self-Publishing Poetry with Orna Ross and Dalma Szentpály

Do you want to know how to properly market self-published poetry? Many poets spend a lot of time submitting to literary journals and competitions, but the new way to reach poetry readers is through digital social media and book publishing.

In this session poet and ALLi Director Orna Ross, and Dalma Szentpály, business developer at book distributor PublishDrive, discuss some of the many ways to make and market poetry books today.

Tune in for discussions on a different theme each month with a focus on developing prosperity for poets through community building and self-publishing.

Here are some highlights:

Orna, on Thinking of the Ideal Reader

And I find it useful personally to imagine one person. I think of my daughter's friend or my husband's friend, somebody I don't know all that well, but I kind of have a sense of them. For me, it's also important to think about their energy. And one of the things I think a lot about is whether the energy is masculine or feminine.

Dalma, on Thinking of the Ideal Reader

Try this out as a creative exercise, you know, imagine your ideal reader up to the point, that they are sitting next to their window, reading lyrical poetry, this sort of thing. Absolutely it's a trial and error, it's testing, it's updating all of the time. So it's not a clear-cut science for sure.

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Show Notes

• Tool to help you see books bought by others in your niche (“also boughts”)
• More information about PublishDrive’s AI Savant which help you find categories for your book
• Orna’s new poetry book Allowing Now on Amazon
• Further book marketing help can be had by inserting keywords like “poetry books” and “book marketing” into our blog search engine 

About the Hosts

Orna Ross

Orna’s work for ALLi has seen her repeatedly named one of The Bookseller’s “Top 100 people in publishing.” She launched at the 2012 London Book Fair, after taking her rights back from Penguin in 2011 and republishing her books herself, with the titles and treatment she’d originally wanted. Orna writes award-winning poetry and fiction, runs a Patreon page for poets and poetry lovers as well as an active author website. She is on a mission to help eradicate creative poverty through digital publishing and enterprise. You can find her on Twitter and Instagram: @ornaross.

Dalma Szentpály

Dalma Szentpály co-hosts the Self-Publishing Poetry salon. She works at PublishDrive as a self-publishing professional and has been a lifelong lover of poetry. A native Hungarian, she started learning about lyricism from poetry giants like Attila József and János Pilinszky but also recited brooding lines of verse from international poets like Pablo Neruda or Anna Ahmatova. In university, she fell in love with W.B. Yeats and Emily Dickinson and wrote her thesis about the “villanelle” form in Sylvia Plath’s poetry. As a university lecturer and an event manager at an independent bookstore in Budapest Dalma encouraged readers to re-engage with poetry. Check out her blog post about contemporary poetry trends here: https://publishdrive.com/publishing-poetry-2018/. Find Dalma on Twitter and LinkedIn.

Read the Transcript

Orna Ross: I'm Orna Ross, director of the Alliance of Independent Authors, known as ALLi to our friends because we are your self publishing ally, ally with an ‘i' and it's the Alliance of Independent Authors that runs these weekly podcasts offering advice to indie authors on various aspects of self publishing. And this, today, is our self publishing poetry podcast which is very dear to my heart, because I write poetry and Dalma's because she reads and loves poetry, and secretly might be writing some too.

So it's a new podcast for ALLi and last time we spoke about the simplest form of poetry book publishing, putting together a chapbook and hopefully guided some of you into just how easy that is these days with all the great tools that are available to us.

But of course, there's no point in making a book, chapbook, or a collection or a selected poetry or a themed poetry book or any kind of book, if you don't get it out to readers. The indie authors that we work with, many of them want to make a living from their writing. And what is amazing at the moment is that poetry is really enjoying a Renaissance and sales have become very possible for poets.

So that's what we're going to be focusing on this evening and probably in our next session next month also. So that was so today focusing in on marketing, and next time focusing in on promotion. So before I kind of explain the difference between those two and we get stuck into giving you our best advice and what we've seen working for the members of ALLi and of course Dalma works for PublishDrive.

Can you talk to us a little bit, Dalma, about your month? How are things going for you? What's up? What's happening in PublishDrive, you know, anything poetry-related going on in your life?

Dalma Szentpály: Yeah, sure, of course. Hi, everyone. I'm Dalma Szentpály from PublishDrive, which is a digital distribution platform. And so how my months been, I attended the Frankfurt Book Fair, which is one of the major trade happenings of the year and I was not only there as a representative of PublishDrive, but as a reader as well. So during the weekend I had incredible fun to, you know, explore the different stands, explore the merchandise, and I picked up a pack of tarot cards.

And why I'm telling you this is that you just said that I'm secretly writing poetry. So why I picked up a pack of tarot cards is because it's going to help with my poetry writing, as well as my short fiction. Because a lot of writers actually use Tarot, which is full of archetypal images, to add a layer of ancient knowledge, cultural consciousness, powerful images that invoke sort of a mystical background to each and every reader.

So I highly encourage you to do the same. If you read, for example, William Butler Yeats or if you read fantasy writers like Cassandra Clare, you're going to encounter someway or another Tarot images. So yeah, that's basically what's going on?

Orna Ross: Yeah. Interesting. I, of course, have a huge interest in W. B. Yeats, one of my novels, a trilogy actually of novels that I'm working on book two and three and all of that is in there, that whole collective unconsciousness. And that's kind of expressed through symbols and the poetry of course does so well.

And that's, I think, the unique sort of, before we get into talking about marketing because this does feed in a little bit. I think the unique value of poetry in our very busy days is that we can incorporate both ancient knowledge and what's happening right now in very short form because of poetry's use of symbol, rhyme and rhythm, because of those kind of writing techniques that go into good poetry, they somehow manage to encapsulate much more of that comes in through the symbology. So that's fascinating. And Frankfurt, of course, is always an experience. And that wasn't your first Frankfurt?

Dalma Szentpály: No, it's my second. But I always wanted to go there as I wanted to work in publishing for such a long time. So it's always an incredible experience. And it was, too, this time as well. And what was your month like? So what was your October?

Orna Ross: Well, my big excitement was publishing a poetry book. I published Allowing Now on the 25th of October, my son's birthday, I just randomly picked the publication date around that, just to make a nice celebration event on all fronts. So that is a collection, a themed collection of mindfulness poems, poems for mindfulness which I've been writing for many years and just kind of brought together into one collection. And so that's now available to buy on Amazon, Apple and all kinds of good Indie stores. And-

Dalma Szentpály: Wow.

Orna Ross: Yeah, it's great. And it will be going up on PublishDrive very shortly or it maybe there already, I'm not sure. So yeah, let's talk about, because I'm right in the heart of it now, because I've just published a book, I'm right in the heart of thinking about marketing and promotion. And today, we're going to talk about marketing in particular, and people, sometimes beginners, you know, people who are setting out to publish for the first time confuse these two.

And so the first thing we want to do is kind of separate them out very clearly and say that marketing is everything that sort of tells your potential readers that the book exists, that you exist as an author and everything that makes it easy for them to move through your funnel, access the book. Exactly, exactly. Do you have a specific definition of marketing? Or does that kind of align with how you think about it on PublishDrive as well?

Dalma Szentpály: I would say so. I would say so, definitely. It's how you make your book visible to as many readers as possible basically.

Orna Ross: Exactly and then promotion is when you are doing a specific thing around a specific book for a time based period, so it might be a price promotion might be a-

Dalma Szentpály: Newsletter promotion.

Orna Ross: Newsletter. Exactly. So promotions are time-based and they're on one title. You may be running a number of promotions simultaneously but the thing i that it's about one book, whereas marketing is also about you as the author, and it's about your whole oeuvre. It's about how all your books kind of fit together. It's about branding yourself as a writer, you know, what all your books you may write and you may write other things besides poetry, but you need to, in your marketing, account for how poetry fits in.

So what we want to do today is begin by bringing you through the very general steps that you need to go through when you're setting out to make a marketing plan. So you begin with the high level stuff, and then you work down through into, drill down into the more detailed kind of activity, campaigns and then into the promotion.

We're going to begin today with the high level stuff because, particularly when it comes to poetry, poetry, for some people, for a lot of us, comes spontaneously and we don't plan so we often write the thing, put it together, put it out there, but then have no idea how to actually take it to the reader. And so marketing is about this marketing plan that we're going to offer you is about how you begin to change that way of thinking about your poetry.

Dalma Szentpály: What is the first thing that you do, Orna, when you start planning out your marketing plan?

Orna Ross: Yeah, I think what you've got to do is kind of make a summary of where you're at now, because each book as it comes along, you're in a different place. And if you haven't done any marketing before, if you're putting together a marketing plan for the very first time, then you need to, you know, get a number of things kind of down on paper and having them in your head is one thing, it tends to be fuzzy wuzzy, putting it down on paper is very rare.

So, you know, take a sheet of paper, call it “Marketing Plan” and kind of summary of where I'm at now. And I recommend for this kind of thing whenever I'm doing it and I do it every time I have a new book coming in whichever genre, I go back to the marketing plan for that category of book. I write poetry, fiction, nonfiction as well. So I go back each time to redo, rejig, change slightly and over the years you change less and less as you become more clued into what your marketing is all about.

So first thing – is this your first book? Any poetry books you've written before and poetry books you would like to write, your general sort of writing and publishing intentions for the next five years,your writing and publishing intentions for the year that's coming and then your particular writing and publishing intentions for this book, and then the very important topic of your ideal reader, something I know you think think a lot about them have done a lot of work on.

Dalma Szentpály: Absolutely. And I think that's something that you have to figure out very specifically. So very generally, first, you know, age, gender what kind of work does she do or is she a student yet? Where does she live? So very, very particular details but also connected to how she reads poetry. So is she reading it frequently or is she reading it, you know, just on on the way to work? Is she reading it on her phone or on her Kindle or prefers to reading it in print.

So these are incredibly important details to have sort of a reader profile and whenever, even in big publishing companies, this is something very, very important. And of course, not only one type of person is going to read your poetry book, so you have to plan out at least several reading profile, I would encourage you to do this.

And not, I would say that try to appeal to all of them at the same time, but when you are going to do promotions, and that's another aspect of it, you can kind of target these reading groups separately for different periods of time with different marketing strategies. But first of all, that would be the most important parts to have reader profiles, very specific reader profiles. Do you want anything to add? Do you think I covered it mostly?

Orna Ross: I think what I'd like to add is that a lot of authors and poets want to skip this phase. And you know, this is my experience, I want to skip it myself, you know, because you want to get into the nitty gritty, I want to get my book sold. I want to get my book out there. And we tend to think “Oh God, you know, this ideal reader business, you know, I've got lots of different kinds of readers, what's this going to do?”

And I want to reiterate what you said, it's just so important to begin to get that profile down. What I find best if you're new to this is maybe start with one and knowing that you will add others as time goes along. And I find it useful personally to imagine one person and to think of them as I am describing. So to, you know, think of my daughter's friend or you know, my husband's friend, somebody I don't know all that well, but I kind of have a sense of them.

And as well as all the kind of things that, you know, we think of when we talk about doing this kind of profile, all the other things that we've mentioned there, which are really, really important. For me, it's also important to think about their energy. And one of the things I think a lot about is whether the energy is masculine or feminine and we all have both male and female. So-

Dalma Szentpály: Yeah, yeah, very good point.

Orna Ross: A woman can be attracted to sort of empowering, strengthening stuff just as much as a man and a man can be attracted to the nurturing, softer kind of stuff just as much as a woman. But it's the energy that you're kind of trying to connect with. And so it goes back a little bit and I know you said the things to talk about on this as well. It comes back to why you write poetry, and why you expect them to actually buy your book. Why should they part of that their good money and buy your book. What's your value proposition? What are you actually bringing to them?

And, and so yeah, the question, I think, and this is what's so wonderful about marketing because it feeds back into the work then. When you think about your marketing in this way, next poem you come to write, you're bringing this knowledge with you. Next, you know, promotion campaign that you do around keywords or categories. Next book you set up when you're choosing your metadata, the information that you've got from working on your marketing plan and putting books out there based on it and you mentioned the testing, trying and seeing, seeing what works and what doesn't.

So this is, like your writing, and like your publishing, this is ongoing. It's an ongoing part of your publishing. It's not something I do my marketing plan, tick, tick tick and off I go, I know everything. It's a creative process whereby you actually experiment and explore, learn and apply the knowledge,

Dalma Szentpály: It's very much trial and error most of the time, you know, just trying out what fits you personally because, you know, there are a lot of different marketing strategies out there. Of course, we are trying to give out a sort of basic knowledge for this. But, you know, for example, if you, as you said before, for you, it works to imagine someone who you kind of have a feel of, your daughter's friend or your husband's friend or someone who you can connect with.

Someone also tries this out as a creative exercise, you know, imagine your ideal reader up to the point that they are sitting next to their window, reading lyrical poetry, this sort of thing. So this very, very detailed part. So absolutely it's a trial and error, it's testing, it's updating all of the time. So it's not a clear cut science for sure.

Orna Ross: And one thing I think that you should do right now, as part of this plan and should go up at the top of your plan is a three sentence biography about you as a poet. So you may write other things, but specifically, a three sentence sentence bio that would appeal to this ideal reader, this person that you're trying to reach, because the act of writing that out, and trying to describe yourself in a way that is appealing to them, will give you a sense of, you know, what this particular poetry book, what the value that's at the heart of it. And so that's something that definitely needs to go into your plan.

Again, it's something that could probably change as you go along. But get three good sentences down, really important. And the other thing, of course, that's super important is the comparable poets and the online publishing tools make this so much easier today. So I would say start just with three, keep it small. Again, you're getting much more in a while, but just start with by identifying three poetry books that you feel are similar to this book that you're now putting out but describe to yourself, you know, in your marketing plan, why your book is different from and actually what I mean by different from is better than, why is the title better than these other three or by “better than” I mean filling a need that they don't fill.

So every book, even though it will fall into a genre and a category and a niche and even within a very small niche, you need to make clear the appeal of this particular book. So I find it useful to use this formula. Now, my poetry books or the title helps what kind of reader to what, you know, so think about how you help them. And entertainment helps, make no mistake. We think of education as kind of being helpful, you know, teaching people how to do things or inspiring people, but actually the world sorely needs entertainment as well.

Dalma Szentpály: Entertainment.

Orna Ross: So but whatever it is, you write down the book's unique advantage is that it, you know, and just brainstorm that a bit. What is its unique advantage? What does it actually do? You have lots of thoughts, I think, on comparable poets, don't you? You see the importance of this all the time in PublishDrive.

Dalma Szentpály: Absolutely. I think it's incredibly important to know what kind of market you're entering into. So that's one of the things that you should know your surroundings as well as you know your own poems. And I would definitely encourage you to try out your yasiv.com which is yasiv.com. If you write in a keyword that describes best your poems, it's going to list all the comparable titles that are the best sellers right now on Amazon. So basically, it helps you find those, if you don't have anyone in mind.

So I think that most poets read poetry. But if you don't exactly know what's out there right now, this is a stepping stone that you can use, for example. So I would encourage you to just play around with it and look around. And yes, I completely agree with what Orna said that you should have three, at least, and you should find how you're better at helping your readers find that particular niche that also maybe these poets are giving the readers but you know, just saying that more funny than…. or something like that. Of course it's an oversimplification but something like this.

Orna Ross: No, that's wonderful and you know, while we're talking about it, it's naturally going to sound as if we're speaking theoretically and sort of in the abstract but when you get stuck into Yasiv or whichever of these tools that you like, it becomes fun. It begins to become much more real and that's what the marketing plan is all about, taking you out of fuzzy, sort of generalized feelings and making sure that you are grounded and very connected not just to your own value and the comparable poets and where you fit.

But also, you know, that you become aware of what's going on in poetry at the moment so that, you know, a lot of us write our poetry and maybe read the poets that we know and love. But in terms of becoming a good poetry that's fine for your writing, and as a reader, but in terms of becoming a good poetry publisher, which is what we're talking about here you need to know what's happening now. And how about how poetry books are actually bought and read and sold now, who's popular and why, how they market and promote also so when you find some of these comparable poets that you go across to their websites, look at how they do things.

Don't just stick with the books, don't just stay on amazon.com, say, have a good look around in other countries as well, other territories, how they present themselves there but also their website, their Instagram, their Twitter, their Facebook, you can learn from all of this, things about how you would present yourself. So you'll see things that you love that other people do and you can borrow those or adapt them to your own needs. You'll see things that you hate and don't want to do, which is fantastic because a lot of this is about getting very specific about your niche and not being afraid of drilling down into that niche. And you'll see things that are a bit “Meh, I don't care one way or the other.”

And again, I would say drop those as well. So there's so much going on out there. The danger these days for marketing is not that, you know, you can't market, it's the absolute opposite. There are 100,000 things you can be doing- You've got to find the one that's right for you. And you know, maybe one, two or three. But first starting off one. You've got to find one way of reaching readers that you absolutely love and that they love, so that you can connect and get the books to them.

So in terms of finding that, if you don't have a clue, the best way is looking at comparable poets and seeing what they are doing. Yes, so what you'll also do when you do that is you will begin to compile your metadata, that scary word, which is core to online retail marketing these days. Now you guys at PublishDrive are the experts on this. So I'm going to hand this one over to you in a moment but, and just to say that metadata, while it does sound like a scary word, all it means is the information about your book presented in the way that the online retailers and the readers can understand what kind of book this is and all the details about it. And so you get into things like the category of the book, the keywords of the books, the subcategories and all of that. And again, just to finish off on the comparable authors, look at the categories, they're turning up in on Amazon and look at the keywords that they're using in their marketing on their websites, in their book descriptions. You can get really good keywords by looking at the book descriptions of your comparable poets. Okay, meta data, you are the metadata person, tell us all about metadata.

Dalma Szentpály: That you can do. Yeah. Well, it's an incredibly fancy word for sure, and scary as well. But, you know, metadata covers every single information that your book has, meaning your cover is part of your metadata, however bizarre that may sound but yes, it is. Your title is part of your metadata. Also, your description, which is very, very important, your keywords, your categorization, your pricing is also, very funnily enough. So everything aside from the content is part of your metadata. So what I would do and this is what we always encourage our authors at PublishDrive is to be very, very careful of how you compile everything that connects to your metadata, because that's the basic of your marketing tool of your book. And one thing that I wanted to say is that's available in PublishDrive and we worked with it for a long time is we have an AI called Savant and I don't know whether you know this, Orna-

Orna Ross: I do.

Dalma Szentpály: But yes, we have an AI that reads your book and suggest a category for, based on the content and based on the data that we compiled in other books that suggests the category for your book that perfectly will fit. And that will help you, what you said before, with the comparable titles, as well as comparable volumes because you're going to get into that market that your readers are expecting to find your book in. So basically, that's metadata that you're-

Orna Ross: Just before you hop off on that, I think I'm right in saying that Savant is available to people who don't distribute through PublishDrive. Am I right in that?

Dalma Szentpály: Oh, yes. For everyone, yes, yes. So-

Orna Ross: It's a really generous act of yours to make it widely available and not restricted to those who distribute with you. So yeah, thank you for that. Yeah.

Dalma Szentpály: Actually, yeah, thank you for adding that. Even if you upload your book as a draft, you can try out Savant and it's going to suggest a category for you. So, if you want to play around with it, you're more than welcome to do that.

Orna Ross: And can you give people and we'll include in the show notes, and we will include the other website addresses that we've mentioned, can you just tell people where they can find that AI? Sure. So if you go to wwww.publishdrive.com and you register, you sign up and you go through the onboarding process, which is not a very long process, and then you upload the draft of your book, Savant is going to come up almost immediately and it's going to suggest to you a category because when you upload your book, you also have to fill out your metadata.

So that's when you immediately have to write in your author, your everything basically, and then it's going to come up and do this for you. That's great and in a further, you know, in a podcast, probably the one after next or the one after that, we will talk about distribution and how to get your book out to as wide an audience as possible and if I could just say that PublishDrive is fantastic for that.

And, you know, you might want to go direct to Amazon and Apple and so on or you might want a one stop shop and PublishDrive makes your choice on either of those very easy, and also has different ways that you can pay depending on whether you're a high volume seller or not, you know, just getting started and so on. So if you don't know about PublishDrive and going up and shaking Savant's hand is a good way to find out more about what they do. Okay, so-

Dalma Szentpály: Thanks.

Orna Ross: No, you're welcome. And thank you for the great tools. So yeah, and so do you think we've covered metadata? Is there anything else you'd like to say about that before we just, we're coming close to the end of our show this week.

Dalma Szentpály: I think you should generally just look into, for example, BISAC codes and what does that mean, for example, for categorization, that's what most stores use. It means that it's a basic tree-like categorization, and it's very easily available if you type into Google BISAC, we're going to include it in the show notes as well. And that's something that I think people need to know about.

And another thing that I would add to keywords is that be as specific about it as possible and not general, so specific to your book, because that helps with different algorithms better than if you would include something very general. So if you're writing romantic poetry, I would not necessarily write romantic poetry there. I would go more… What would you suggest in this case, Orna, what would you say?

Orna Ross: Well, it really depends, you know, if you're writing hot, steamy stuff, you're going to put erotic poetry, you know, romance or whatever. If it's sort of tied into a time period, I also find for including things like your nationality, and so on, you know, all of these very kind of specific keywords, when you put your book up in the online retailers, you will get a varying sort of offering of the number of keywords, you can do and picking up on what Dalma is saying, sometimes authors pick the broadest category because that's going to reach most people. And that's actually the wrong way to think about it. It is the absolute opposite. You want to narrow down as much as you can.

So I think the thing to say about metadata and why we spent a good bit of time kind of going into it is that you now take it and you put it into your marketing plan. And then you test all this so you don't have to get it right first time out. All you have to do make a good stab at understanding your niche, your micro niche, your keywords, your category and so on.

Then when you have all that, write it down in your marketing plan. So describe what your book is about to yourself, describe it from the reader's point of view, again, remembering the formula, how it helps them and write down the categories that you've chosen, write down the keywords that you've chosen.

And also think about how people are going to get, you know, from their first hearing about your book to buying it, what is the sort of process for the reader. Are you going to sell on your website? We recommend that you do, that you have a transactional website, something we'll go into again in another session. Are you going to distribute widely Are you going to just distribute on one retailer for now? Write all this into your marketing plan so that when it comes round in a few months, and you've had some time and experience to see what's happening you can feed back into your marketing plan, what is working.

So, you know, thinking about things like, are you going to set up on social media? If so, where? And how often do you intend to post? Review, you know, how are you going to get them? Do you want to get them? Are you going to actively go after them? And do you want to be featured on podcasts or in blogs? And are you going to enter for awards or prizes? How many books do you actually want to sell, you know, what's success for you?

And thinking about all this and just writing it down, and also, are you going to invest some money in marketing up front before you earn anything or as a percentage as you go along? Write all this down. And again, I would recommend writing a sentence may make you uncomfortable, and if it does, all the more reason why you need to write down kind of a summary statement, so by such and such a date, I will have sold this number of books and made that amount of money by getting this amount of reviews, entering that number of awards, doing this number of appearances, you know, whatever it is that you intend to do. That's the basis of the action plan and the promotional plan that we'll talk about next time. So, yeah, anything to add to that Dalma?

Dalma Szentpály: Not to the marketing part I would say.

Orna Ross: Okay. So, yeah, I think in terms of, we're out of time, and I think in terms of generally describing, we did hope to kind of move on a little bit more in this show to talking about actual specific action plans. And that's what we will do in the next show.

Dalma Szentpály: Yes, one thing that I think we should just mention very quickly is about Indie Poetry, Please.

Orna Ross: Yes, absolutely nearly forgot. So important. So we have decided to split these two out because as you can see, we've run out of time, we've gone over time just on the advice and we haven't given all the advice we intended to give today. So we are going to run every two weeks. So today we have our Ask ALLi Advice. And in two weeks time we have Indie Poetry, Please where we'll be bringing you an interview with a contemporary poet and featuring poetry from indie poets at all stages of their careers, starting out and and experienced people and everything in between. and Dalma is going to do the compilation of who we'll be hearing from on the show and people need to send in their poems in audio format.

So we have some poetry and thank you for those who have submitted. It's fantastic. And we have a future poet chosen for next time out. It's very exciting but we have room for more. So we want you to keep on sending in your poetry to us. And you can find out the details of how to do that on ornaross.com/indie-poetry-please, ornaross.com/indie-poetry-please. Yeah, what am I forgetting, Dalma, always forgetting something, is that it?

Dalma Szentpály: No, I think it's completely comprehensive. Yes.

Orna Ross: Yes. And do you want to tell us a tiny bit about the poet that will be featured in the next show.

Dalma Szentpály: Yeah.

Orna Ross: Or do you want to keep it- I think it's a bit of a surprise. But I would say that the poets that going to be featured are early in their career, but they're very, very exciting and incredibly deep, I would say. So I'm very excited about introducing them. So we'll see. Okay, so it'll take a little while for that podcast to find its legs but we are confident that there's a need for it and we're looking forward to receiving your poetry.

So until then and until we speak next time, if you have any questions, comments or anything, just do leave it there in the comments. This will roll as a podcast on the Alliance of Independent Authors Podcast on Wednesday next, so if you want to catch up on anything, there will be a transcript there, and the show notes on the ALLi blog at selfpublishingadvice.org. So until then, see you next time and may your life be full of poetry.

Dalma Szentpály: Bye bye.

Orna Ross: Bye.

Howard Lovy: You've been listening to the Ask ALLi Self Publishing Poetry podcast with ALLi director, Orna Ross and Dalma Szentpály of PublishDrive. I'm Howard Lovy and our weekly self publishing advice podcast is brought to you by ALLi, the Alliance of Independent Authors.

If you enjoyed this podcast, please tap on your favorite podcast app and give us a review that will help others discover the family of ALLi podcasts, advice, tips and tools at our self publishing advice center, selfpublishingadvice.org. And if you haven't already, we invite you to join our organization to become a self publishing ally. You can do that at Allianceindependentauthors.org. Now what are you waiting for? Go write and publish!