ALLi Campaigns Manager Matty Dalrymple speaks with author and editor Valerie Francis about the role of developmental editing in crafting a breakout book. Valerie highlights the importance of a strong premise, compelling protagonist, intriguing plot, and engaging world. She explains how to capture reader interest in the first five to ten pages and use story theory to elevate book quality. They also discuss common pitfalls, such as overemphasizing world-building, and offer tips for focusing on the elements that make a story successful.
Listen to the Podcast: The Role of Developmental Editing in Writing a Breakout Book
On the Self-Publishing with ALLi Podcast, @MattyDalrymple talks with @valerie_francis about how developmental editing helps writers create breakout books, focusing on strong premises, compelling characters, and engaging plots. Share on XFurther Reading
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About the Host
Matty Dalrymple podcasts, writes, speaks, and consults on the writing craft and the publishing voyage as The Indy Author. She has written books on the business of short fiction and podcasting for authors, and her articles have appeared in Writer’s Digest magazine. She serves as the campaigns manager for the Alliance of Independent Authors. Matty is also the author of the Lizzy Ballard Thrillers, beginning with Rock Paper Scissors; the Ann Kinnear Suspense Novels, beginning with The Sense of Death; and the Ann Kinnear Suspense Shorts, including Close These Eyes. She is a member of International Thriller Writers and Sisters in Crime.
About the Guest
Valerie Francis is a bestselling author, story editor, and co-host of the Story Nerd podcast. As an editor, Valerie helps women who write in all genres learn how stories work so they can finish their books faster and without frustration. As a podcaster, Valerie's mission is to show writers that story theory is a valuable tool that can—and will—help them write more, not less. As an author, Valerie is currently finishing her third novel, a vampire thriller for fans of Anne Rice. You can connect with Valerie on her website, Instagram, Threads, and YouTube.
Read the Transcripts
Matty Dalrymple: Hello everyone, I am Matty Dalrymple. I am the Campaigns Manager for the Alliance of Independent Authors, and I am here today with Valerie Francis. Valerie, how are you doing?
Valerie Francis: I'm good, thanks. How are you, Matty?
Matty Dalrymple: I'm doing great as well, thank you.
To give everyone a little bit of background on you, Valerie Francis is a best-selling author, story editor, and co-host of the Story Nerd podcast.
As an editor, Valerie helps women who write in all genres learn how stories can work so they can finish their books faster and without frustration. As a podcaster, Valerie's mission is to show writers that story theory is a valuable tool that can and will help them write more, not less. And as an author, Valerie is currently finishing her third novel, which is a vampire thriller for fans of Anne Rice. So, that sounds quite fun.
This is the editing and design stream of the ALLi podcast, and I'm always challenged to think of business-related twists on the editing work, and I love this topic, the role of developmental editing and writing a breakout book.
As we get into this conversation, I wanted to ask you for two definitions. The first is, just explain to us, when you say developmental editing, what do you mean?
Valerie Francis: That's a really good question, because like everything else in our industry, we don't have an accepted definition of anything. We can't even agree on what genre is. So, for me, developmental editing, essentially, is teaching someone how to write, teaching someone how stories work, what the storytelling principles are, what the theory is, and how to use it to make their stories better, make their novels better.
It's to develop the skill of the author, develop their skill in writing a novel, develop the writing craft.
Matty Dalrymple: So, that's a very interesting discussion. This might lead us into a whole different, tell me if I've just said something that's going to be like a whole different podcast episode. But it's almost as if developmental editing could even happen before a person has their story written, is that true?
Valerie Francis: Absolutely, and when I work with writers, it doesn't matter where they are in the writing process. Some people come to me, and they have a manuscript done and they want my help to beef it up to make sure it's working before they either self-publish it or go through the query process.
Other people have a partially written manuscript, but some people have an idea, and they come to me to show them what to do because it's faster. They don't want to spend three or four or five or even ten years working on this thing without really knowing what to do.
Matty Dalrymple: Yeah, that's the very clear business tie in right there if anybody had any questions, because efficiency is important if you're running your author business as a business and not as a hobby, which is also a fine choice, but a different choice.
So, the other definition I wanted to ask was, we're talking about the role of developmental editing and writing a breakout book. How would you define breakout book?
Valerie Francis: Another great question. It's one that sells. When I say sell, most writers can sell a few hundred copies of their book because that's their reach. That's their friends and family and the people who love and support them and want to see them succeed.
But in order to have a career as a writer, whether that's a part-time career or whether you want to quit your day job and be a full-time author, you've got to be selling a lot more numbers than that.
So, a breakout book is one that cuts through the noise. It gets noticed. It is one that readers are talking about and recommending to their friends, and that is where the role of developmental editing comes in. Because in any business, whether we're talking about publishing, or owning a hair salon, or whatever industry you're in, the very first thing, rule number one, is that you have a product, or a service depending on your industry, a product that is really good.
If you bring a half-baked product to market in any industry, your business is over before it's begun. Because, sure, you'll sell to a first layer of customers. People who are, in our case, readers who really get excited about discovering a new author, maybe in their favorite genre, maybe it's an author from their hometown, but it's a new voice and they really love to hear new voices and new stories. Those are your early adopters. Every industry will have those.
You have to make those early adopters happy, and the way we make them happy is by giving them a really great story. One that is so good, they can't help but tell a friend about it.
Because this is a word-of-mouth industry. At the end of the day, we can do whatever other types of marketing we want to find those early adopters, whether it's a mailing list blast, or we're buying advertising, doing Facebook ads, maybe our book gets picked for an influencer podcast, or a book club. All those things are great outreach, they're great ideas, and we should be looking to do those kinds of things, but that is to find those early adopters.
At the end of the day, readers have to tell other readers about our books, or we're just not going to have enough money to invest in all the advertising, right? If the book is no good, you're wasting time and money.
You cannot build a career on a book, on a story that doesn't work, that doesn't engage your readers, that doesn't understand the convention of the genres, all that good stuff.
Matty Dalrymple: Yeah, I think that indie authors even have an added responsibility for providing the best possible product because, unlike a beauty salon where, you don't go into a beauty salon and have a bad experience and then say, Oh, it's just indie beauty salons, they're just universally bad.
We also have the responsibility to continue to eat away at any remaining stigma about indie publishing by putting out books that are just as good as any books put out by any individual or corporation out there.
Valerie Francis: I'm really surprised that there still is a stigma. I don't argue with you that there is one. I'm just surprised at why it's there. I wonder, unless people just aren't sure what it is yet. It still has the holdover of you weren't good enough to get published by one of the big five, so you had no choice but to do it yourself, and it's the bunch of books in the trunk of your car.
That's okay, in time that will go.
Matty Dalrymple: Yes, and I think there's still this sense, among an increasingly small group of people, that publishers are acting in some kind of quality gatekeeper role that nobody else can act in, and not realizing that the professional indie author acts in that capability themselves with the partnership of an editor.
This is why I don't like to say self-publishing, I like to say indie publishing because we're not doing it ourselves.
Valerie Francis: That's true, that is true.
Matty Dalrymple: So, you had sent some guidelines about some of the things that authors can do in order to use developmental editing to ensure that they're creating a breakout book, and one of those things was the four-story must-haves. So, talk a little bit about that.
Valerie Francis: Yeah. So, this is from a real high-level look at our story. You've got to have a compelling premise. So, the idea you have for your book has got to be something that makes a reader, now that reader could be a book buyer, or if you want to go the traditional route, because indie published authors, a lot of them are also hybrid authors. So, that could be a book buyer, that could be an agent, that could be a publishing house.
It's an idea that when they hear it, they go, Oh, that's interesting. Oh yeah, I'd like to read about that. Daisy Jones and the Six. That's interesting. Oh yeah, I'm interested. It's going to make me open the cover.
Because your premise, your story idea, is the back cover blurb. That's part of what it does. So, it has to be compelling enough to get them to open the cover of the book.
The second thing you need is a really interesting protagonist. Now, the protagonist doesn't have to be likable, but he or she has to be interesting.
The reader has got to be really curious about this character, and what is she going to do next, and why is she doing that? Because the protagonist is the reader's avatar in the book. They are our ears and eyes as we read a novel. So, you've got to have someone who's interesting.
You also have to have an intriguing plot, and that is true even if you're writing character driven stories, because every story has to have great characters and a great plot. It doesn't matter if the plot is your focus or the characters are your focus, you've got to have both. Everything in a story exists in a hierarchy, and that is there to save our sanity as writers.
I get pushback on this from writers sometimes until I fully explain it and they start to use it, and they realize, okay, this is helping me make decisions. So, everything in a story exists in a hierarchy. Even in a plot driven story, character reigns supreme. So, character is always the most important.
So, you've got to have a protagonist who's interesting, you've got to have a plot that's intriguing. The reader has to want to know what's going to happen next.
And the fourth thing that you need is a really compelling world. This is a world we want to hang out in.
And I think this is the secret to Maeve Benchy's success. I think it's the world that she created. Same thing with J. K. Rowling. Who does not want to be at Hogwarts? Like, I want to go to Diagon Alley. So, there's so many writers. Again, Daisy Jones and the Six, right? That's cool. I want to hang out in that world.
So, those are the four things that writers as storytellers and creators, these are the four check marks, things on the list of things we have to really make sure we are paying attention to and we are communicating as effectively as possible to the reader, and the way we do that is with all these storytelling tools. That's what the theory is all about.
That's why I get so excited when I talk about story theory. It sounds so dry and boring, and I just want to write, I don't want to learn theory.
But with story theory, if I use the example of a painter, okay. Matty, if you wanted me to teach you how to paint, I could teach you about perspectives. I could teach you about the color wheel. I could teach you about shading. I could teach you about all the different brushes and how they work versus painting with a palette knife. I could teach you about charcoal, or pastels, or watercolor, acrylics. All those types of things, I can teach you.
That's the theory. That's showing you what the tools are and how they work.
What you do with them is up to you. That's your artistry.
Artistry is not something that I can teach. That is the thing no one can teach you.
What you can learn is the tools. So, for novelists, anyone writing fiction or even memoirists, anyone wanting to write their memoir, that's a story.
So, you have to understand macro storytelling concepts. You need to under understand how scenes work. What is an object of desire? How do you create tension? How do you create conflict? Who is your character? What makes them tick? What do they stand to lose? What do they want in this story? What is setting them on their adventure? What shape will the story be? All that kind of stuff.
This is the easy stuff, and there are people who want to make story theory really confusing. I do not know why because it's simple. It is so simple, and this is the drum that I am beating, and I hope that if listeners take nothing else from this episode today, they just take my word for it.
Story theory is super simple to understand, and what we do on the Story Nerd podcast is we take each season, my podcast co-host, Melanie Hill, and I each take a different storytelling principle, a bit of theory, and we study films. And we say, here's how they use the theory in this film. So that writers not only understand the concept, but they get to see it in action.
Matty Dalrymple: I really like that analogy of the tools of the artist, because I think no one who is thinking about becoming a painter would say, I'm just going to go into the art store and I'm going to wander around and I'm going to hope that I can tell what this thing is for and that I use it in a practical way and I don't burn my studio down because I used it in an impractical way. People expect to have that foundational information before they go into that endeavor.
Valerie Francis: Exactly. Now, on the podcast, we're doing films, and I want to flag this because people might have their eyebrow raised and wonder, why are you doing films if your audience is novelists? There's a couple of reasons. One is because there's no way Melanie and I could read and analyze a novel every single week for the podcast.
Even if we could, even if we did nothing else in life but that, our listeners wouldn't be able to do it, and so a lot of it would be hearing the concepts without having read the novel and so it wouldn't ground the concepts.
With a film, it's easy to watch a film, and it's only a couple of bucks, you can have it on while you're cooking supper and get the gist of the story and easily understand what we're talking about on the podcast.
And when we're talking about macro storytelling concepts, like high level concepts, a story is a story is a story. They all work the same way. So, if you're writing a story for a novel or a film or a stage play, or a TV show, the story works the same way. What's different is the medium.
Matty Dalrymple: One of the things I wanted to ask about the four story must haves is you were saying that you have to have an interesting protagonist, you have to have an interesting world, and so on.
And I think that one of the things that's very difficult for a writer to see on their own is to them, the world is intrinsically interesting. To them, the protagonist is intrinsically interesting.
Do you have any tips that you could share that would allow an author to put on a developmental editing hat and take that step back and say, looking at this as the target reader, am I going to find these plots or characters or world interesting?
Valerie Francis: Yeah, absolutely. It could be before you start a story, it could be a story that you're currently working on, pull way, way back from your story and there's four questions I want you to consider.
Who is the protagonist?
Now, oftentimes, people will just stop at the name or a very high-level description. But when you think about who is the protagonist, really think about what makes them tick, and think about their contradictions, because we are contradictory, by nature.
You can start by using archetypes, that's a great shorthand, but don't stop with that. That's a starting point; that's not an end point. Think about the types of things that your character does. What she says versus what she does.
For example, you could have a character who says all the time that they abhor intolerance. If they come across someone who's intolerant, it really makes them angry and they're intolerant of it. But they themselves are intolerant. That's a beautiful contradiction that you can really play with. These are the colors and the nuances of a character that really give you a lot to work with in a story and that automatically make that protagonist compelling to your reader. So, that's the first question. Who's your protagonist?
The second question is, what does he or she want? Now, in our business, we don't have a standard set of terms that we all agree on. This is something that makes story theory a bit difficult to understand, because the genre means one thing to me, it means something else to you.
This idea of want, what does the character want? It's also called an object of desire. It's also called a goal. It's called an intention. Lots of words for it. I like the phrase object of desire because of the word desire. There's lots of things we want in life. Like, I want to go to Australia and actually meet Melanie Hill face-to-face. We've never met in person. That's something I want. But, for me to take action on it, it has to be a burning desire, I have to be super focused on it. To find the time and the money and the people to keep my life running while I'm halfway around the world.
And that's really important, your character has to want something so badly that they will move heaven and earth to get it, because your protagonist needs to be active. Now, it is possible to write a story with a passive protagonist, but that's called a mini plot story, and stories have shapes.
When someone says they want to watch a movie or they want to read a book, what they are expecting when they open the cover is a classic story form, what we call classic story form, and that is 90 percent plus of the books and the stories that we consume in any form.
One aspect of a classic story form is that the protagonist is active. If you wanted to write a story with a protagonist that is passive, sure it can be done, but you've really got to have serious storytelling chops. It's advanced.
It would be like saying, I've never run before, and I want to run a marathon. Can you do that? Sure. But first you got to learn to run a 5k, and you've got to build up gradually.
For someone who's never written a novel before to say, I want to write a book like The Accidental Tourist, where the protagonist, Macon, is very passive, unless you really know what you're doing and you have a good grasp of the craft, you will probably crash and burn.
Okay, so the four questions. Who is the protagonist? What do they want? What do they want so badly that they're going to go after it with everything they've got? The third question is, what or who is standing in the way of them getting it?
This is all about the antagonist, or the forces of antagonism. Because stories are about change, we do not change willingly as human beings. We are forced to change, and it's obstacles, it's conflict, that makes us change. If your story doesn't have great conflict, it's not working. Your reader's going to bail, because it's going to be boring.
We love conflict. We cannot help but be attracted by conflict.
I was at the gym the other day and across the gym, I'm supposed to be focused on my ellipse, the coach is there, across the gym, an argument broke out. It took everything in me to focus on what I was doing and not look over and see what they were doing, because it's just human nature.
So, the antagonist, or the force of antagonism, is crucial. If the protagonist is the most important character in the book, the antagonist is the second and most important, because the whole middle build of your story, at least 50 percent of your story, is driven by that antagonist.
And the final question is, what happens if your main character does not get what they want?
That's all about stakes. So that there's something riding on this. They're going after a thing, because if they don't get it, this other thing is going to happen.
Anything can be at stake. It only matters that whatever it is, is super important to your main character, because if it's important to your character, it's important to the reader.
Matty Dalrymple: Yeah, I like these ideas of calling out the things that can be done, but are maybe like the graduate level things, like having your protagonist be passive, or I think another example that people use is writing in second person or something like that.
Can it be done, yes, because we can all go look up and find examples of well-respected successful books that do these things, but if you're looking to deliver a high-quality product and doing it in a reasonable period of time, then I like these ideas of, let's not take the most circuitous route. Let's take a route that is most likely to get us where we want to be, the quality and the efficiency as quickly as possible.
Valerie Francis: And if we're looking at marketability and having a book that breaks out, those four things I just mentioned, who is the protagonist? What do they want? What or who is standing in the way of them getting it? What happens if they don't get it? Your reader wants to know that. They're expecting to be told that and told it very quickly, very early in your novel, in your story.
So, when someone is reading your book, if those answers don't become apparent to them, they will lose interest because the story will meander and they're like, what? Because they read the back cover blurb, or whatever was on the sales page about this character and that's why they bought the book. So, that's the story they're expecting to be told. It's got to get started right away and those four things have to be apparent as quickly as possible to the reader to keep them engaged. So, if we're looking at how to have a breakout book, got to have the answers to those four questions.
The writer has to know them inside and out, and you've got to deliver them to the reader as quickly as possible.
Matty Dalrymple: So, as quickly as possible, I think, based on some communications we exchanged before the interview, is within the first ten pages, maybe even the first five pages. So, can you elaborate on that a little bit?
What can you hold back and how can you achieve that, where you're hooking people with those four key components right away?
Valerie Francis: This is one of my favorite topics. It really is. So, why do I say the first five or ten pages?
In traditional publishing, agents often request ten pages. When you send your query letter in, it's usually ten sample pages. When you indie publish, there's a free sample of your book. It's going to be about ten pages. That has to hook the reader.
But those ten pages are not equal, they have a function. You've got to hook the reader in the first five pages, because by the end of five pages, the reader will have made a decision on your book.
Either, yeah, this is good, I want to read more. Which means pages six through ten are just confirming that initial favorable opinion of your story.
If they get to the end of five pages and they're not into it, they're not going to read the rest. I say ten, it's really five.
You want to start your story in action, and I really wish we had a dictionary, and we all agreed on common terms. It would make our lives so much easier. By in action, I mean with a scene that works. There has to be conflict. Those four story questions I just mentioned, who's the protagonist, what do they want, all that kind of stuff, they apply to scenes as well.
So, you can start your story with a character that is not the protagonist. Absolutely, we all can find plenty of examples of that. But you're going to make your life a lot easier if the very first character that your reader meets is the protagonist, because your reader comes to the book looking for the character that they connect with.
Who am I in this book? Who's my avatar? Who's my stand in? Who do I connect with emotionally? It's the protagonist. So, if it's the first person they meet, rock and roll. You've just made your life a lot easier. Likewise, if you dispense with the prologue, you've made your life a lot easier.
So, in the first five pages, you've got to introduce your main character. That should be on page one.
You've got to establish the time and place, like where and when are we? Are we in modern day New York? Are we on Tatooine? Are we in 18th century London? Where and when is this story taking place? And that can be right on the first page as well, as quickly as possible.
And you also need to establish what are the rules of this fictional world? They can be anything you need them to be, as long as you communicate them clearly to your reader and you stick with them.
So, if there's the supernatural in your world, hint at that somewhere in those first five pages. If people can see dead people, that's going to be in there somewhere.
And if you're looking for examples of how to do this, just go pull a bunch of books off your shelf that have supernatural in them and see how it's established. Or if it's a fantasy, the types of words that the writer uses will suggest a fantasy novel. They could be talking about swords, or the characters are in an inn, or it's that kind of thing.
If it's 18th century England, the language will be different, the dialogue will be different than a contemporary novel set in New York.
As quickly as possible, find ways to do that.
A common thing that writers will do is open up their novel with a character who is maybe sitting and thinking. Or a character who is sitting and watching children play in a playground. Nothing's really happening, they're just thinking. There's no conflict. You want conflict. You want to present a problem to your main character as quickly as possible, because how they overcome that problem reveals who they are.
So, they can say one thing, how they act is really who they are. A quote from Aaron Sorkin that I really like is, “What a character does reveals who they are. What a character says reveals who they think they are.”
Which is great. I hope that answers the question.
Matty Dalrymple: Yeah, I like the idea of having to include all the components of the book, which are the same as the components of the chapter, which are the same as the components of the scene they're all required at every level of the story, and I think that's a good way of explaining.
I made one very short foray into editing, and it was a book that I don't read myself, problem one. It was like a fantasy world kind of thing, and he spent, I would say, the first ten pages on the world, because that was what fascinated him, and there was no suggestion of what's going on with the people. What is the conflict that we need to be aware of right from the start?
I think that's a good way of explaining, because you can only pack so much into those pages, and you have to be hitting all these notes. So, you can't be just playing one note for the first ten pages and expect most readers to stick with you.
Valerie Francis: Ask yourself, what is it the reader absolutely needs to know in this moment? Some of the backstory might be really important, but do they need to know it in those first five to ten pages?
My guess is probably not. You could push it further back into your novel and only tell them what they need to know when they need to know it.
There's the whole show don't tell thing. Okay. So, that is about these big info dumps, and writers not knowing how to use exposition effectively.
Every single story we consume in any form, I guarantee you, Matty, there is exposition because it's really important. Like on that first page, when you establish where and when the story is, if you say New York City, December 18th, 2024. Guess what? That's exposition. It's telling a fact. We need that.
Because if you didn't use some exposition and use it effectively, it would affect the pacing of your storytelling, it would just slow everything down and clog it all up. There are times when you just have to tell the reader what they need to know, so that they can get on with the story. So, in those first five to ten pages, really put on your editing hat, and ask yourself, does the reader absolutely need to know this bit of information right now, or can I tell them a bit later?
You have to be really brutal with yourself, and be really honest with yourself, because it might be a passage that you spent a week on and you really worked on the line writing, great, but it might have to be deleted or moved somewhere else.
That's why the line writing is the last thing you worry about. You have to make sure the story is working first, then you can go in and polish it with the prose. Otherwise, it's a colossal waste of time in most cases. I found that out the hard way on my first novel. I have great empathy for writers who have to do that, because I've had to do it myself.
Matty Dalrymple: Yeah, I had the learning. I wrote an article about this for Writer's Digest. I had the learning from one of my novels that, just what you're saying, there was a character motivation, a major character motivation issue, and there was a lot of ripping and tearing that had to go on, and so I came up with this idea of a story frame because I love nautical metaphors for the writing craft and the publishing voyage and that idea of, if you want the keel in place, you want to know you're building a tugboat, whatever, a canoe or whatever it is, and then you want to have the frame in place before you start like polishing the brass or, whatever the equivalent of tidying up your word choices.
Valerie Francis: Exactly. It's the scaffolding. You have to have it there in place to make sure it works, because if your story's not working, whatever else you're doing, even if you indie publish it, because you're going to spend time on, at the very least, copy edits and proofreaders, you're going to be paying for cover designers, you're going to be paying for your website and all those other business expenses, then you're going to be paying for advertising, spending a lot of time pitching podcasts that are book club podcasts and seeing can you get on and tell them about your book. That's very time consuming.
If your story is not working, all of that time and energy and money is for naught. So, step number one is to make sure your story is rock solid. That is where story theory comes in, and it's actually fun. I think it's really fun. What's the worst thing that you do? You watch some movies and read some books and that's research. That's a pretty cool job. Come on.
Matty Dalrymple: Yeah, that's the kind of research I like to do. That's the kind of job I want.
Valerie, thank you so much. I know that, having listened to your earlier podcasts and so on, I know that we could keep chatting about this productively for hours, but I think we've given people a lot of great homework to take away, to think about, be their own developmental editor at least at first, and find those ways to make the business side of editing as productive as possible.
So, thank you so much. Please let everyone know where they can go to find out more about you and everything you do online.
Valerie Francis: Best place to go is my website, which is ValerieFrancis.ca. If you sign up to my inner circle, there's a bunch of free training there. It's ValerieFrancis.ca/innercircle.
Sign up there. It's my mailing list, as we all know how that works. Whole bunch of free training in there that you can just get stuck in on. And by all means, come check out the Story Nerd podcast. The link to that is on my site.
Matty Dalrymple: Excellent. Thank you so much.
